tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post9207262703251470698..comments2024-03-15T04:08:16.172-04:00Comments on Only the Cinema: On Violence and Restraint in The Dark KnightEd Howardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18014222247676090467noreply@blogger.comBlogger79125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-79136097595458535312008-08-15T14:12:00.000-04:002008-08-15T14:12:00.000-04:00I knew this would happen - I'm adding to a dead th...I knew this would happen - I'm adding to a dead thread!<BR/><BR/>Jacob,<BR/><BR/>You wrote: <I>Thus, I'd say we should take the allusions to the real world--NOT as saying something deep about current events (nothing obligates us to)--but instead as obvious familiarities which can be used to say something deep about themes within the film.</I><BR/><BR/>I agree - and you're thinking like a Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-84065394336426146042008-08-15T11:15:00.000-04:002008-08-15T11:15:00.000-04:00way too late, of course.But I cut and pasted McKee...way too late, of course.<BR/><BR/>But I cut and pasted McKee's first comment (with full citation!) to Metafilter last night - in a lively thread about the Joker as arch nemesis. They're a tough crowd there, but McKee's thoughts are reaping bouquets - which is only right and proper!<BR/>Jody TresidderAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-51927854836998582632008-08-14T00:40:00.000-04:002008-08-14T00:40:00.000-04:00I think Nolan tries to have it both ways in this f...I think Nolan tries to have it both ways in this film. Both Batman and Superman are such staples in America for kids (even four and five year olds sleep in Batman and Superman pajamas) that it's tricky to make a "realistic" Batman film that fits into the parameters of PG13. I do agree with "culture snob" who said the blood avoidance "sometimes seemed less like an artistic choice and more of an Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-44581823893593636602008-08-09T14:24:00.000-04:002008-08-09T14:24:00.000-04:00"How was the tournament? What was the tournament? ...<I>"How was the tournament? What was the tournament? And why have you come back to haunt me with your brutally well-reasoned criticisms?"</I><BR/><BR/>http://www.nagafighter.com/batb08_home.asp<BR/><BR/>I won a samurai sword!<BR/><BR/><I>"Since the film failed to win me over early in the game, I'm much more readily inclined to read it negatively -- and the converse is true for you."</I><BR/><BR/>Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17620168177213531405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-57989165339364712982008-08-06T16:48:00.000-04:002008-08-06T16:48:00.000-04:00A note here that I'm grateful for the discussion m...A note here that I'm grateful for the discussion my review and Ed's response has inspired in this thread. If I don't join in more in-depth it is due, mainly, to the fact that I feel I've said all I have to say about <I>The Dark Knight</I> and that numerous professional duties prevent me from doing so besides. Would that it were a more interesting movie to me, which isn't to say that it shouldn't Keith Uhlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09366621160453356504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-36928827881622564172008-08-05T14:29:00.000-04:002008-08-05T14:29:00.000-04:00You're right, of course, Jody -- I couldn't stay a...You're right, of course, Jody -- I couldn't stay away entirely (but thanks for the fond farewell, nonetheless). : )<BR/><BR/>Jacob: How was the tournament? What <I>was</I> the tournament? And why have you come back to haunt me with your brutally well-reasoned criticisms? (These latest posts of mine have been genuinely sloppy, haven't they.)<BR/><BR/>"You seem to be sure that, when it comes toAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-6189203308620342132008-08-04T18:51:00.000-04:002008-08-04T18:51:00.000-04:00"I've read a few comments elsewhere in admiration ...<I>"I've read a few comments elsewhere in admiration of the film's "centered" approach (i.e. advocating neither "for" nor "against" anything in particular), claiming that the unbiased presentation of politically piquant subject matter is, in-and-of-itself, valuable.</I>"<BR/><BR/>I guess this is my instinct too. You seem to be sure that, when it comes to allusions, the film is (to borrow Jody's Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17620168177213531405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-2814561856470481812008-08-04T10:33:00.000-04:002008-08-04T10:33:00.000-04:00Kevin,Betcha can't help checking back just once!I ...<B>Kevin</B>,<BR/>Betcha can't help checking back just once!<BR/><BR/>I just want to blow you a big (chaste) kiss. It's been a pleasure debating with you and you've observed, intuitively the delightful etiquette that has bubbled up here between those of us left here with (truly commendable) stamina.<BR/><BR/>I think we can all creep away neither bloodied, nor unbowed.<BR/><BR/>You wrote:<BR/><BR/Jody Tresidderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08008545276386929608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-17833415116036463592008-08-03T18:13:00.000-04:002008-08-03T18:13:00.000-04:00I think I might be just about done with TDK (thoug...I think I might be just about done with TDK (though I look forward to reading anything else you have to say about it, McKee -- fascinating stuff) because I can no longer seem to find the time (or muster the motivation) to maintain even the lowliest level of intelligent discourse on this subject. I'm all argued out.<BR/><BR/>I can't leave you hanging, of course, Jody, so I'll do my best to Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-79696667977572046672008-08-01T17:23:00.000-04:002008-08-01T17:23:00.000-04:00McKee says...First of all, I'm honored by your war...McKee says...<BR/><BR/>First of all, I'm honored by your warm acceptance of my comments! I ought to assure you all, that I have no particular insider knowledge of this movie's infrastructure. <BR/><BR/>In fact, I'm afraid I'm going to have to join many of you in being baffled by the TDK's many bizarre omissions, unexpected cutaways, confusing action collages, and overall narrative messiness.<BRUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17329298504135696838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-32915469503340886632008-08-01T09:38:00.000-04:002008-08-01T09:38:00.000-04:00kevin h.I vow to do my best just to cover one of y...<B>kevin h.</B><BR/><BR/>I vow to do my best just to cover one of your points. You write re: TDK's real world allusions:<BR/><BR/><I>Despite the fact that I believe these topical allusions to be ineffectual and even absurd (given the comic-book fantasy blockbuster context), they are unquestionably designed to be provocative, meant to direct our thoughts towards their "real world" significance..</Jody Tresidderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08008545276386929608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-73290748813528971992008-08-01T00:01:00.000-04:002008-08-01T00:01:00.000-04:00[To McKee:] "For the first time, I feel as though ...<I>[To McKee:] "For the first time, I feel as though I’ve lost my footing in this debate.</I><BR/><BR/>Ouch. I shall strive towards these standards.<BR/><BR/><I>"A minor error, but the only Keith to comment in this thread hasn’t contributed for nine days. : )"</I><BR/><BR/>Er... Kevin. <BR/><BR/><I>"I fully agree. In fact, this is precisely what I was advocating for in regards to Keith’s review, Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17620168177213531405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-72154654543460400422008-07-31T16:33:00.000-04:002008-07-31T16:33:00.000-04:00"Keith, McKee, and Jody: Good stuff."A minor error..."Keith, McKee, and Jody: Good stuff."<BR/><BR/>A minor error, but the only Keith to comment in this thread hasn’t contributed for nine days. : )<BR/><BR/>"I've haphazardly taken quotes I felt compelled to respond to, in no particularly order or regimen. Sorry. ;)"<BR/><BR/>Finally wearing you out, are we? Welcome to the damned club, brother. And congratulations for holding out as long as you Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-31887526277341381692008-07-31T00:15:00.000-04:002008-07-31T00:15:00.000-04:00Keith, McKee, and Jody: Good stuff. I've haphazard...Keith, McKee, and Jody: Good stuff. I've haphazardly taken quotes I felt compelled to respond to, in no particularly order or regimen. Sorry. ;)<BR/><BR/><I>"But I think this mostly acts as smokescreen for the paradoxically over- and under-written part. Over-written in the sense that there's simply too much expository dialogue dedicated to his plots, plans and philosophical outlook; and Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17620168177213531405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-69088551082709335292008-07-30T16:00:00.000-04:002008-07-30T16:00:00.000-04:00Couldn’t stay away, hang it all.In the last paragr...Couldn’t stay away, <I>hang it all</I>.<BR/><BR/>In the last paragraph of my latest post, "chance" should read "change". With that out of the way....<BR/><BR/>McKee:<BR/><BR/>Having read your comment more thoroughly (instead of glancing at it almost unconsciously while editing my most recent ramble), I must credit you with the most clear, precise, and convincing explication of how certain Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-12602624172043661762008-07-30T14:19:00.000-04:002008-07-30T14:19:00.000-04:00A quickie from me too - (four days of holiday wash...A quickie from me too - (four days of holiday washing to do on top of proper work; like <B>kevin h</B>, I'm scolding myself for being so ruinously distracted here!).<BR/><BR/>But, yes- as kevin also asks - what the <I>hell</I>, McKee!!!<BR/><BR/>That was brilliant. Gosh...<BR/><BR/>Kevin - you are making total - and wonderfully provocative - sense here. And I promise I won't say "mordant" again, Jody Tresidderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08008545276386929608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-51864400414349975522008-07-30T13:54:00.000-04:002008-07-30T13:54:00.000-04:00Thanks for the reply, Jody. At least three of us ...Thanks for the reply, Jody. At least three of us still hacking away, then....<BR/><BR/>"I prefer a more rigorous - a more dogged - exposition of how they identify what is ‘numinous’, personally."<BR/><BR/>Well that’s the problem, really, isn’t it? How do you rigorously, doggedly define that which extends beyond our capacity to articulate? Beyond our ability to hold the whole of it together in Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-29533311504161710662008-07-30T13:27:00.000-04:002008-07-30T13:27:00.000-04:00McKee said...I've been following the popular react...McKee said...<BR/><BR/>I've been following the popular reaction to TDK and its negative reviews with great interest. <BR/><BR/>I googled "dark knight analysis" and then "dark knight criticism" and stumbled upon this fascinating exchange. Having read through, I'd like to chime in on one or two points.<BR/><BR/>I'm well impressed by all of your superb arguments and perspicacious elocutions, so I Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-71544151319878383382008-07-30T10:39:00.000-04:002008-07-30T10:39:00.000-04:00Kevin h,Wonderful comments in the main (though I'v...<B>Kevin h</B>,<BR/>Wonderful comments in the main (though I've never much cared for critics who loftily wave their pale hands towards the "numinous" in literature. I prefer a more rigorous - a more dogged - exposition of how they identify what <I>is</I> "numinous", personally.)<BR/><BR/>In the end, re: TDK, I see artistic success at precisely the point you find failure.<BR/>Specifically, when Jody Tresidderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08008545276386929608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-57784529452768239972008-07-30T01:33:00.000-04:002008-07-30T01:33:00.000-04:00I can't help thinking we should remove this dialog...I can't help thinking we should remove this dialogue to another forum (since we've digressed rather extensively from the original discussion), but I don't know where else to suggest. I suppose the two or three or half-dozen of us still checking in periodically can continue to do so over the coming days (weeks? months?), but eventually the thread will have to expire <I>in toto</I>. But to keep Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-49069989433255520282008-07-29T01:13:00.000-04:002008-07-29T01:13:00.000-04:00At your (apparent) preference, I'll also try to be...At your (apparent) preference, I'll also try to be brief, only addressing the major points, and/or the ones on which we significantly disagree. If you feel I've missed something important, let me know.<BR/><BR/><I>"He aired his grievances with TDK in an open forum and you attacked him (not just his method) on his own site."</I><BR/><BR/>Well, he attacked Nolan himself as well, calling him a Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17620168177213531405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-81721709129803913482008-07-27T12:09:00.000-04:002008-07-27T12:09:00.000-04:00Well that was regrettable. Is there a delete butt...Well that was regrettable. Is there a delete button?<BR/><BR/>I probably should have just gotten it out of my system and then abandoned it instead of posting it, but there's a kind of resignation involved once so much time has been invested: you <I>have</I> to post it or all that effort feels wasted. It's usually wasted anyway, since revealing your personal commitment to navel-gazing can do Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-12062823680109650072008-07-26T23:04:00.000-04:002008-07-26T23:04:00.000-04:00Some quick provocations (but try not to allow thei...Some quick provocations (but try not to allow their brevity to imply hostility or disdain):<BR/><BR/>“Anything that can be said about my condescension or rudeness towards Keith can also be said about him towards Nolan. And if he can write in such self-assured tones, I see no reason why I can't.... I have no problem with anyone responding to my tone ill-favorably, as long as they are <I>not</I> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-47801791964385039262008-07-25T09:07:00.000-04:002008-07-25T09:07:00.000-04:00Just to echo appreciation of the way this thread h...Just to echo appreciation of the way this thread has turned (including the recent links & not least of all "young" Jacob's graceful arguments).<BR/>I'm actually going off line for 4 days - a brief holiday - which I find unusually vexing timing <I>only</I> because of this thread!).Jody Tresidderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08008545276386929608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3296479421292377391.post-42635944922618811952008-07-25T07:08:00.000-04:002008-07-25T07:08:00.000-04:00Jacob: The Joker's comments do serve a function. A...Jacob: The Joker's comments do serve a function. And Ledger pulls that scene off nicely. And the analogy is an absolutely perfect one that fits the film. But, again, the effect would be greater if the Nolans could have delivered the same message through a different character. I actually like that scene. But when I look at it from Keith's perspective, that's a scene I zero in on and see where the Jason Bellamyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18150199580478147196noreply@blogger.com